Some photos, even fairly new ones, show Minis drifting at huge yaw angles running on skinny, low grip tires.  These tires allow the cars to be thrown about on racetracks with reckless abandon, by skilled drivers, but it's a recipe for heartbreak by wannabes.  You won't see GT5/L Minis, running on 13 inch slicks, being driven this way.   U.S. vintage Mini racing tires are stiffer and have much more grip than the tires a lot of English Minis race on.  Even when Rhodes(and others) were generating all the tire smoke whilst cornering, it was only because his tires weren't up to it and he abused them terribly.  Rhodes was an excellent driver and proved it in open wheel cars, but Mini racing tires in those days were in no way up to the task.  Anyone employing that technique with today's tires would quickly realize that it's the slow way around.  The main reason for rear-wheel drive "Minis" in GT5/L was an effort to reduce the amount of work done by the overworked front tires.  Of course, gearboxes with interchangeable gear ratios didn't hurt either.

My first memory of racing minis is from Harewood Acres, just north of the border in Buffalo in the early 60's. Of course that was before good racing tires and all the minis drove the way being described. It was great fun to watch a number of cars going down the straight and one by one peel off into sideways slides to rocket through the corners. I even remember a mini or two running cross flow heads at the time.

 yes  aero   sideways force  is a direct relation to speed   typicaly we would hang it out at 35 and above   even at 120 mph I could get the rear 20 plus degrees out ,     if fact when I would have a big car or a New driver behind me  and pushing I would realy get the ass  to run  way way out   would scare the heck out of them and back off from the crazy guy .  Brad Baker was realy good at it in his mini   learned it from him.   he would be behind you in a corner  jab the steering go in way to fast and slid right by you full sideways  smoke porring off the tires  , you would be so scared you backed off , after the first few times  I would jam him back and throw it sideways before him . was loads of fun watching two minis  slide through a corner  smoking .

have you ever tried the reverse turn from a stop . ???

Err, so what kind of speeds are we talking about?  It occurred to me that this may have no effect at all at a measly 35 mph or so!

Thanks to the Interstate Highway System, it is now possible to travel from coast to coast without seeing anything.
Charles Kuralt

Autox/Rallyx Videos

 yes  you betya    a real good mini set up right could drift 20 degrees or more be very controlable and its all based on the big side aero drag ,    one funny one was I made a cover for the race moke to cut down drag   coverd the back and  be side  me , ended up costing time as it removed the down force on the rear caused by the  rear panel sticking up like a spolier ,

pixieracing, I assume this picture illustrates what you are talking about?

http://www.swiftune.com/images/gallery/historic%20racing/goodwood1.jpg

I was running my brother's SCCA prepared TR4 (my old car) in a Porsche speed event on an airport course some time ago. I hadn't driven the car since '78. Or driven at real speed for a real long time.

The third corner gave me some trouble. First time I spun it. Oversteer. The rear end whipped around on me and I did a nice 360.

The next lap it was understeer. Wheels turned left for the 90 degree turn and car when straight, off track into the weeds.

Third time was charm.

The TR4 tended to oversteer more than anything but judicious use of steering wheel (sawing) and throttle could get me through quickly, if not with a lot of work. Back in 60s we called this behavior, typical of the TR4 then, "Dirt Tracking". That's with rear drive of course.

After the Porsche event we found out the front sway bar was something like 4X or so too big. (Built before computer programs).

Used a program that gave correct specs (thickness etc) and had the old one turned down and now the car is very ballanced and virtually neutral.

Ah, the wonders of computer technology. But I kind of like dirt tracking.

Opinions I express here do not reflect my wife's.

No I never really did get the oversteer/understeer thing. 

wonder if people get it   the  huge side flat panels on the rear and the lips make a  counter balance side wing , just like a sprint car ,  this allows you to hang the rear end out and have balance .  I realised this when my  race moke would not  hang the rear  end out  with the same control my  race mini had . traced it down to the side aero pressures. 

The wonder of oversteer cornering with a FWD car is how FAST you can corner, or, more accurately, how much less speed you have to get rid of before you negotiate a corner and how little you lose on your way around!

the beauty of oversteer cornering is that you can modulate with the throttle

if it gets a little too much rotation you apply a bit more power to pull it straight

if it is not rotating enough you can close the throttle to upset the balance a bit more toward the front (deceleration) to lighten up the rear end and cause it to come a bit more around.

wonderful fun, but always make sure you have:

a) enough run-off room if you mess up and get terminal understeer (at least you know where you'll end up), or terminal oversteer (sometimes hard to guess where you'll punch through the hedge).

b) enough power to spare, and in the right gear, to successfully and smoothly pull it straight when you are pointing the way you want to go at the end of the turn.

c) never, never, never slam the throttle shut, or worst of all, hit the brakes, once you have committed to one of these (see oversteer in "a" above).

This is the best part about driving any front wheel drive car, the more neutrally set up the better.

Oh, and to enjoy this at the slowest possible speeds (= more safety margin), use the hand brake to momentarily lock up the rear wheels to initiate the oversteer and to define just when to end it.

Oh, and note: in order to end an oversteer turn initiated by using the hand brake (remember that you stopped the rotation of the rear wheels), you must continue to move forward so that the rears will resume rotation when you release the handbrake. Classic "Rico Suave blunder" is to do this at too slow a speed, on too slippery a pavement, release the handbrake and the rear wheels just stay stopped = no traction comes back and you just go on a lazy spin until the momentum runs itself out (hopefully, before you run out of road / luck).

Norm "bootleg turns = glee" Kerr

How timely, I was thinking of asking about this after seeing video of an autox last weekend. 

I had had pretty bad understeer.  I replaced the front lower arms this spring and got some negative camber.  The car feels so much better.  The rear seems to slip, but not too much (unless I want it to).

I was wondering if oversteer was kind of like understeer in a "Smoky Rhodes turn the wheels and the car will automatically slow to the fastest possible cornering speed, then gain traction and turn" way.  (Sorry, no idea how to put that better!)  I wasn't sure if I was overdriving the car or getting close to the edge.  It sounds like I'm on the right side of the edge - sweet!  I must agree that it's more fun than keeping it fully planted and a whole lot better than the dreaded understeer!

Thanks to the Interstate Highway System, it is now possible to travel from coast to coast without seeing anything.
Charles Kuralt

Autox/Rallyx Videos

lots of folks have raced and won with Minis running no swaybars.  I was merely asking speedpilot why he inferred that he should remove his rear swaybar.  It was clear from what he wrote that he doesn't understand their purpose vis-a-vis understeer/oversteer.  Removing a rear swaybar would most likely reduce oversteer or increase understeer with the result that it would be harder, not easier,  to hang the rear end out.  Encouraging people to drive that way "around town" is an especially bad idea.  Most drivers lack the skills required to drive a Mini that way and road conditions preclude driving that way safely.  I have raced a Mini without a swaybar and am in no hurry to install one.

I ran no sway bars when i raced  but had very much modified suspension,   and yes hanging it out is stable when set up properly due to the  aero balance  at 15 degrees slidways , and fun to do when driving around town.    more fun is a backward power turn in the snow or wet ,   to do a power reverse turn where the mini turns in its own length , you stick it in reverse turn the wheel to full lock pull up  on the hand brake and floor it , the car will rotate  quickly around the one rear wheel and you then  get to the angle you want shift to first  release hand brake and power away . he he he fun     works best in snow but workes on wet pavement as well   .  most fun in parking lots .

My girl friend's got a big @@s - I wonder......

M.

My mind's made up - don't bother me with facts!

 

 

I like power induced tail hangouts and not totally comfortable when it happens on announced during cornering.

the whole point of installing a rear swaybar(ok, anti-roll bar)  on a Mini is to reduce understeer or induce oversteer.  So why would you want to take it off?

Minis corner faster with rear end drift because it makes them handle in a more neutral manner(less/no understeer).  Front-wheel drive cars, in general, can be driven more quickly in this fashion.  That said, it's a tricky balancing act requiring driver skill to drive a Mini this way

All that aside, anyone driving this much sideways on the street is a menace to himself and others.

so what your saying is that those of us who have put rear sway bars on the rear should remove them because they tend to keep the wheels down and thus your rear end does not brake away in the turns. Or so I have found.

No one has mentioned why minis go so fast around corners when you hang the ass end out, I did a lot of research and found the shape of a mini with the big side flat body in the rear and the joint seams sticking out created a big side pressure, when I raced I would get the mini 15 degrees side ways  we even named it slideways motoring.   The lips act as small gurney flaps and the side area cause  up to 750 lbs of side force holding the  rear end  at 10to 15 degrees.   just like the big side wings on a  sprint dirt tracker  keep the rear end in control, so hang your ass out  and go faster .