| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-13-2008 05:10AM
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Ian, apparently I wasn't clear enough about what I really meant. When I referred to those who "blindly buy" Aldons, I was speaking only of people who blindly buy an Aldon red or yellow, from this vendor or that, and who never provide their own engine specs or never get the Aldon offering recurved. This does not apply to you, obviously. Apologies all around if I caused your blood pressure to rise. One of the posters to the thread played a role in helping to define the advance curves offered with the 123. See if you can guess which one it was. The 123 was designed in Denmark, I believe. You are correct about the appeal of the 123. When one buys a 123, they are buying much more than simply a recurved Lucas. They are buying a cleverly implemented electronic distributor which, among other things, uses quality Bosch plastic bits like cap/rotor rather than the Lucas stuff. Not to mention the fact that they are buying 16 advance curves which may come in handy if a different engine size/build is undertaken or if the 123 is sold on to another person with a different engine build. Another benefit from buying a 123 is that you won't be buying one of the Chinese "Lucas" dizzies that seized up whilst being dynoed.
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| 1963S |
| Total Posts: | 331 |
| Last Post: | 05-14-08 |
| User Since: | 09-21-06 |
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Posted: May-13-2008 02:50AM
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"if non-professional engine builders knew what their engine wanted, much less their VE, why the Hell would so many blindly buy Aldons?"
I my case it was because Aldon (used to - do they still??) advertise that, if you sent them an engine spec (they provide a questionaire), they would build you a dizzie with the correct curve. Of course when this proves incorrect its a bit of a hassle to process a return. And of course, if you did return it, what would you fit to your car ( a few years ago Aldons were about the only source of new dizzies).
If you're lucky (like me) you will find someone who has the skill and equipment to recurve your new Aldon which is a great solution.
Unfortunately, there aren't many shops with the necessary hardware, software and wetware to do proper re-curves. The only people I have met who are not particularly impressed with 123s are those who have all the above and can set up their own conventional units (and those of their paying customers). I would suggest that the 123 with its adjustability is a godsend to those who don't have access to a dizzie expert..and their equipment.
Am I incorrect in suggesting that one of the posters to this thread actually designed the beast??
Cheers, Ian
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| mur |
| Total Posts: | 2601 |
| Last Post: | 05-13-08 |
| User Since: | 11-12-99 |
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Posted: May-13-2008 02:44AM
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Shear or sheer? When trying to look smart, use the correct words. It might help. Actually being smart is helpful as well.
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-12-2008 10:41PM
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wow !!! it sure is lucky we have a genius, a Canadian one at that, watching this thread. In a moment of shear brilliance, he determined that the dizzy has to be removed. Well, I guess he owns one or has held one of these dizzys, something I have not. I was just passing along the text from the 123 website and then restating it. Silly me Let's see if I got this right, genius. It is totally impossible for something to be on the underside of a dizzy and yet still accessible with a tool and mirror. There is absolutely no way that something could be on the underside of a dizzy and still be accessible or viewable. Did I get that right? I guess my previous post's sentence, in English, "If I remember correctly, it is necessary to remove the distributor to change the curve. " wasn't quite clear enough for some. I'll draw a picture next time. As far as your orgasmic delight regarding the participants on this thread......1 for 2 ain't bad.
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| Dan Moffet |
| Total Posts: | 2208 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 08-14-02 |
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Posted: May-12-2008 05:09AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by declanm So, the curve selection switch is on the underside of the dizzy body. If I remember correctly, it is necessary to remove the distributor to change the curve. But then, my memory fails me most of the time so you may have to find out for yourself if it is necessary to remove the dizzy in order to change curves. |
Yeah, you must be getting forgetful!  You have to take the dizzy out to get to the Allen screw. Then you have to be able to see the click-switch! Wow! What a thread! Marcel Chichak and AC Dodd in the same thread! Who's gonna show up next? KC? Vizzard? Anyway, thanks guys, it reminds me that I really should be moving on from setting 4, (now that I've drained the gasolene from the crankcase)! "Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."
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| mur |
| Total Posts: | 2601 |
| Last Post: | 05-13-08 |
| User Since: | 11-12-99 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 09:39PM
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I never tire of that joke, so thanks partsguy.
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| partsguy1 |
| Total Posts: | 1681 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 11-01-03 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 07:45PM
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Yeah, I would say that #6 is a good starting point with your spec. I am on #8 with my HC Metro at the moment, and all is well. I'm quiet impressed with the Distributor, starts right up........ and no run on. That's a change.  Of course I need to add a Scatter Cam....... (Insert tongue-in-cheek emotioncon here). That was for you mur! Terry Everything goes better with beer.
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 05:46PM
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btsave, you don't have to have a "Mini expert". As long as you can find someone who can tune SU carbs and can play with the ignition timing, you'll be able to get the job done. It would be a plus if the mechanic had A-series experience, such as with Spridgets, but that's not required. If you are still wondering where the curve selection switch is, the 123 website(http://www.tdcperformance.ca/) provides installation instructions which you can access by: clicking 123/Mini Installation Manual on that webpage
Then you must scroll to Step 2 which will provide the following text: "You may wish to verify that the correct advance curve has been selected in your '123' : using a 5mm Allen wrench remove the hexagonal plug on the bottom face of the housing. Inside the hole you'll find a 16 position rotary switch. ( marked '0' to 'F' )" So, the curve selection switch is on the underside of the dizzy body. If I remember correctly, it is necessary to remove the distributor to change the curve. But then, my memory fails me most of the time so you may have to find out for yourself if it is necessary to remove the dizzy in order to change curves. Good Luck !! It sounds like AC Dodd(ie) has provided the necessary information for you.
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| ACDodd |
| Total Posts: | 136 |
| Last Post: | 05-11-08 |
| User Since: | 03-22-02 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 11:34AM
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Hehehe the wife wan't be too happy about the marrying off bit!! Just doing my bit to help out. AC
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 10:09AM
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Well done, AC. Finally a useful response for the lad. When in Italy, make sure you lay your hands on the good-looking signorinas who look(and feel) like Sophia Lauren at age 25. Otherwise, one of your Mini customers might try to marry you off to his sister. Ciao, amici !!
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 10:05AM
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no, you weren't badmouthing the dizzy company.
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| mascherk |
| Total Posts: | 569 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 08-08-02 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 09:49AM
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Do a Google search on, florida dyno. There will be several lists of dynos in the State and you should be able to find one near you.
Cheers,
Kelley "If you can afford the car, you can afford the manual..."
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| ACDodd |
| Total Posts: | 136 |
| Last Post: | 05-11-08 |
| User Since: | 03-22-02 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 09:00AM
 Edited: May-11-2008 09:04AM
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If you guys in the states have problem locating Mini friendly tuners, look at the address below for what some italian guys did in the same situation. They flew me to italy to set there engine up for them! I have used the 123 dizzies before also including megajolt. For your info with that spec I would start with curve 6. http://www.mlmotorsport.com/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/topic,1004.0.html AC
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| btsave |
| Total Posts: | 486 |
| Last Post: | 05-13-08 |
| User Since: | 04-21-02 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 08:04AM
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I hope it didn't come across as if I was bad mouthing the dizzy company! I wasn't. I would love to run the car on a dyno for set up, unfortunately, in my area (East coast florida), there are no, read that NONE, "experts" on mini's.... just mechanics who work on an assortment of cars. The only dyno I know about around here is a small set up in a local motorcycle shop. If anyone knows of someone with a dyno who would know how to set my engine up correctly, in my area, please let me know! Thanks! Bart "huh? did i really just say that out loud?"
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 07:17AM
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if non-professional engine builders knew what their engine wanted, much less their VE, why the Hell would so many blindly buy Aldons? Your post fails to make that rather simple logical connection even after stating both ends of it. I wouldn't buy a "one size fits all" dizzy on a bet, but that doesn't mean others don't. That's much like buying a Weber and expecting it to be tailored to your engine. Madness ! The only way to evaluate a dizzy curve properly is to test it......on a chassis dyno. Very few non-professionals can predict what a given engine build will require before it is tested. Sure, they might guess and end up with a driveable curve, but what's the point in going to the trouble of building an engine just to make it drivable? If you want to have a sharp running engine, rather than one which is merely driveable, the engine must be tested by something other than the driver's derriere. But many folks in the U.S. think nothing of spending thousands on an engine build and then balking at spending another 100-200 on a chassis dyno session to get it tuned right. Then they badmouth the carb and dizzy manufacturers because their engine doesn't run the way they expect. Go figure.
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| 661100 |
| Total Posts: | 274 |
| Last Post: | 05-11-08 |
| User Since: | 02-24-03 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 06:59AM
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Hello Btsave, my 1275 engine has a 1300 GT header, rc40 exhaust, ported head with 1.46 intake valves, sw5 cam, dual hs2's, 9.75 cr on premium fuel. I started with a #5 setting and ended up with a #9 setting using the procedure of heading up a steep hill in third at the bottom at about 30 mph if it started pinging and i had to shift into second i would increase the setting. in the end it would go up the hill accelerating all the way with no need to down shift. this is in a "Non mini" with 12 inch tires and 3.65 final drive. Aaron http://community.webshots.com/user/66mg1100
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| btsave |
| Total Posts: | 486 |
| Last Post: | 05-13-08 |
| User Since: | 04-21-02 |
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Posted: May-11-2008 06:02AM
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That all makes sense, but, I would think that with a fairly stock 1275 engine, an HIF 1.75 single carb, running unleaded gas at sea level, the specs should be pretty "universal". I guess I was just looking for a starting point. Right now, the dizzy is set exactly as it came out of the box and the car runs with a VERY straight curve... The spec sheet doesn't address my specific mini, nor does the information sheets on the website. Also, WHERE is the adjustment gauge exactly? The instructions talk about it, but there are no pics as to where it is. My inner little voice does talk to me, but it curses more often than not so I have it sitting in a corner for timeout.  "huh? did i really just say that out loud?"
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| chichm |
| Total Posts: | 985 |
| Last Post: | 05-10-08 |
| User Since: | 02-20-00 |
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Posted: May-10-2008 08:02PM
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As a curve designer I cannot predict which curve your engine wants, but as an engine builder YOU should have a very good idea of what it will want. If you don't even know that, all I can do is make recommendations based on generalities. Nor can I specify that such and such a curve is suitable for 78-83% VE engines, because I do not know what your combustion chamber looks like, what fuel you are using, what altitude you are at, what swirl rate you designed in, and a dozen other parameters that make a difference to the advance your engine may want through the rev range.
As I said, only your engine can tell you what curve it likes. To home in on that curve means you have to possess the skill of understanding what your engine is telling you*, or you have to have a dyno operator with those skills. And it doesn't make a difference if you are dealing with a mechanical distributor, an electronic one (ie 123) or an open ECU: the engine tells you, you do not tell the engine. What the 123 is offering is a relatively simple way of changing curves without the expense and complexity of ECU's where you have to build your own map.
Sorry if this sounds like a non-answer or an avoidance of the answer you seek. The fact is, there is no panacea. You can buy an Aldon one-size-fits-all universal curve distributor if that makes you sleep comfortably at night knowing that the curve is exactly right because the package said so, but that wee voice is trying to tell you something just as much as your engine is. Learn to listen to it and you will both be much happier.
*Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - more than just a silly book title, it's a life philosophy all car guys should learn
visit my world
www.starchak.ca also check out www.TDCperformance.ca
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| declanm |
| Total Posts: | 94 |
| Last Post: | 05-15-08 |
| User Since: | 04-08-08 |
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Posted: May-10-2008 04:44PM
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how is one supposed to determine their volumetric efficiency? I looked at thge advance curve graphs and there was no reference to VE except to mention that high tuned road engines or race engines have a higher VE. Duh! Did I miss a more specific reference to VE? A chassis dyno session would help one get close to what advance the engine wants, and the carb settings could be checked at the same time. Advance at the higher RPMs could be checked by temporarily reducing or increasing the initial static advance.
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| chichm |
| Total Posts: | 985 |
| Last Post: | 05-10-08 |
| User Since: | 02-20-00 |
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Posted: May-09-2008 08:40PM
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No one will be able to tell you what curve your engine needs, your engine needs to tell you what curve it likes. For guidance, go to www.tdcperformance.ca and look up the tuning guide. There you will find recommendations on where to start based on the volumetric efficiency of your engine.
visit my world
www.starchak.ca also check out www.TDCperformance.ca
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